AW: [RML] Re: Mycobacteriosis/stress/antibiotics

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A realistic scenario here in Germany is that mycobacteriosis could be
made a disease which has to be announced officially. At present only one
disease must be announced, a virus induced spring disease in carps. The
next one will be KHV (Koi herpes virus) maybe this or next year. If you
have to announce fish tb, too, all fish will have to come into
quarantine until they are tb free or have to be euthanized. That would
be the end of normal aquarism and most of all be disastrous for East
Asian and other breeders which have a tb contamination close to 100 %.
And of course for the shop keepers which have to close their aquarium
department until all fish are tb free.=20

=20

Regards Harro

=20

=20

-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: r_m_l at yahoogroups.com [r_m_l at yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
Tom Ray
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. Juni 2005 19:28
An: r_m_l at yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [RML] Re: Mycobacteriosis/stress/antibiotics

=20

2 thots:

1) Resistant bacteria strains has been one of my historical concerns
about treating any fish with antiboitics.=20=20
a) However, I am hearing and reading from a number of "importers"
(into aquaria) of wild-caught fish (anabantids, cichlids, etc.) about
their use of various "pre-introduction" treatment protocols, some of
which include the use of antibiotics.
b) From my college lab days (over 20 years ago), I think that I
recall we had a "pre-introduction" quarantine, assay (or battery of
testing) and potential treatment(s) protocol for all newly arrived lab
animals. I've also heard of humane societies and animal control
shelters having a similar "pre-introduction" routine for determining
whether to even try and keep the animal in lieu of euthanasia (sp?)
(more than the 24-48 hrs. needed to evaluate their overall health).

2) As a point of clarification, I was not suggesting any general use
of antibioitics in any general aquaria (display, keeping, etc.).=20
Rather, I was suggesting adopting (or adapting) something along the
lines of the lab quarantine/test/treat routine for the home collector/
hobbiest since one cannot be sure of the purity of their source(s). I
was reasoning that such treatment could be an appropriate additional
profilactic measure against the 1st two of Diana's 4 factors
influenceing Mycobacteriosis.=20

Nevertheless, I concede that such local (home) containment strategies
should likely still lead to resistant Mycobacteria strains, and thus
could still be ineffective because of others' general application/
(mis)use of antibiotics. So a "big issue" question remains, "What
will happen to the hobby when virulent and resistant Mycobacteria
strains escape back out of the local environment and into the trade
channels / environment without regard to application (use or misuse)
of antibiotics?"

Diana raises an interesting possible outcome from citing the example
of the guppy. Species adaptation/adapability may be a key (and the
5th) factor (not listed).=20=20

Practically speaking, hobbyists will become (and probably already are)
another attack vector, and a largely unmitigated one at that. So
again, the question arises as to how does the hobbiest protect their
local tanks and fish against such unreliable (or potential attack)
sources? The answer I think that I hear we are driving towards is
"egg sale/ trade/ exchange only."

Taking it to the "worst case" end for fish sale/ trade/ exchange
practice (and thus logically abandoning the practical), instead of
species preservationists we may be (or become) the drivers of species
adaptation and/or even extinction. And, again, the only answer that I
think I am hearing will preclude either of these two unquantifiable
and perhaps unqualifiable negative outcomes (aka "risk impacts") is
"egg sale/ trade/ exchange only," eh? It maybe overkill, but it will
reduce the risk exposure (likelihood, accessibility and severity).

--TommyBoy

--- In r_m_l at yahoogroups.com, "Harro Hieronimus"
<harro.hieronimus at t...> wrote:
> To say it clearly and support your view: Never =96 NEVER use antibiotics
> in aquaria. The only thing is that you create resistant stocks and
that
> fish tb may become a real serious thread.=20
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> Regards Harro
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> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: r_m_l at yahoogroups.com [r_m_l at yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag
von
> blueredorganic
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 14. Juni 2005 17:30
> An: r_m_l at yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [RML] Mycobacteriosis/stress/antibiotics
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> Dear Tom,
>=20
> Sorry, I wish a 10 day treatment with antibiotics would rid=20
> Rainbowfish of Mycobacteria marinum. If so, believe me, we would=20
> have heard about it by now! I was only speculating that it might=20
> reduce the total number of Mycobacteria in the tank, the ones that=20
> could re-infect the fish. Its might control total numbers of=20
> pathogen; it won't eradicate them.
>=20
> I wouldn't put much stock in any antibiotics. Antibiotics won't kill=20
> the bacteria that's already holed up in the fish's organs and=20
> tissues. Mycobacteria marinum (like the Mycobacteria that cause lung=20
> tuberculosis) hide from the immune system within the macrophages=20
> themselves, plus they have a waxy coating that makes them very=20
> resistant to all chemical treatments. That's why hobbyists that get=20
> the M. marinum disease (still a relatively rare occurence) have to be=20
> treated with powerful antibiotic combinations for many months.
>=20
> One correction to yesterday's letter. The scientific reference for=20
> M. marinum disease spreading from aquaculture fish to wild fish in=20
> Red Sea was: Diamant A et al. 2000. Mycobacteriosis in wild=20
> rabbitfish Siganus rivulatus associated with cage farmng in the Gulf=20
> of Eilat, Red Sea. Diseases Aquatic Organ 39: 211-219.=20
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> Stress (from whatever factor) always increases the likelihood of=20
> disease. The factors influenceing Mycobacteriosis (infections from=20
> M. marinum) in Rainbowfish are:
>=20
> 1. Introduction of a virulent pathogen (e.g., M. marinum) into the=20
> tank
> 2. Numbers of the pathogen
> 3. Stressed fish
> 4. Strength of the fish's immunune system
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> Rainbowfish (unlike guppies) haven't been in the hobby long enough to=20
> develop (genitically speaking) much immunity to a powerful pathogen=20
> like M. marinumn.=20
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> I started keeping Rainbowfish in 1987. Those first fish (in heavily=20
> planted tank) went through two years with no filtration. They did=20
> fine through hot summers and many months without water changes and 90=20
> ppm nitrate levels (Hey, it was a dry summer and my well kept going=20
> dry). The fish thrived and there were no deaths (except a couple=20
> jumping out of tank).
>=20
> It is only now since the apparent introduction of a virulent pathogen=20
> (most likely M. marinum in April 2004) that all my lovely fish are=20
> on "life support".
>=20
> I hope that my sad experience will warn others to be very careful in=20
> purchasing Rainbowfish.=20
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> Unless you're buying from a seller that can guarantee the fish don't=20
> carry M. marinum, my advice would be to buy eggs.=20=20
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