Julie <'><
>From: "Tom Ray" <t_a_ray_cissp at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: r_m_l at yahoogroups.com
>To: r_m_l at yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [RML] Re: Mycobacteriosis/stress/antibiotics
>Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:27:44 -0000
>
>2 thots:
>
>1) Resistant bacteria strains has been one of my historical concerns
>about treating any fish with antiboitics.
> a) However, I am hearing and reading from a number of "importers"
>(into aquaria) of wild-caught fish (anabantids, cichlids, etc.) about
>their use of various "pre-introduction" treatment protocols, some of
>which include the use of antibiotics.
> b) From my college lab days (over 20 years ago), I think that I
>recall we had a "pre-introduction" quarantine, assay (or battery of
>testing) and potential treatment(s) protocol for all newly arrived lab
>animals. I've also heard of humane societies and animal control
>shelters having a similar "pre-introduction" routine for determining
>whether to even try and keep the animal in lieu of euthanasia (sp?)
>(more than the 24-48 hrs. needed to evaluate their overall health).
>
>2) As a point of clarification, I was not suggesting any general use
>of antibioitics in any general aquaria (display, keeping, etc.).
>Rather, I was suggesting adopting (or adapting) something along the
>lines of the lab quarantine/test/treat routine for the home collector/
>hobbiest since one cannot be sure of the purity of their source(s). I
>was reasoning that such treatment could be an appropriate additional
>profilactic measure against the 1st two of Diana's 4 factors
>influenceing Mycobacteriosis.
>
>Nevertheless, I concede that such local (home) containment strategies
>should likely still lead to resistant Mycobacteria strains, and thus
>could still be ineffective because of others' general application/
>(mis)use of antibiotics. So a "big issue" question remains, "What
>will happen to the hobby when virulent and resistant Mycobacteria
>strains escape back out of the local environment and into the trade
>channels / environment without regard to application (use or misuse)
>of antibiotics?"
>
>Diana raises an interesting possible outcome from citing the example
>of the guppy. Species adaptation/adapability may be a key (and the
>5th) factor (not listed).
>
>Practically speaking, hobbyists will become (and probably already are)
>another attack vector, and a largely unmitigated one at that. So
>again, the question arises as to how does the hobbiest protect their
>local tanks and fish against such unreliable (or potential attack)
>sources? The answer I think that I hear we are driving towards is
>"egg sale/ trade/ exchange only."
>
>Taking it to the "worst case" end for fish sale/ trade/ exchange
>practice (and thus logically abandoning the practical), instead of
>species preservationists we may be (or become) the drivers of species
>adaptation and/or even extinction. And, again, the only answer that I
>think I am hearing will preclude either of these two unquantifiable
>and perhaps unqualifiable negative outcomes (aka "risk impacts") is
>"egg sale/ trade/ exchange only," eh? It maybe overkill, but it will
>reduce the risk exposure (likelihood, accessibility and severity).
>
>--TommyBoy
>
>--- In r_m_l at yahoogroups.com, "Harro Hieronimus"
><harro.hieronimus at t...> wrote:
> > To say it clearly and support your view: Never – NEVER use antibiotics
> > in aquaria. The only thing is that you create resistant stocks and that
> > fish tb may become a real serious thread.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards Harro
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: r_m_l at yahoogroups.com [r_m_l at yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
> > blueredorganic
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 14. Juni 2005 17:30
> > An: r_m_l at yahoogroups.com
> > Betreff: [RML] Mycobacteriosis/stress/antibiotics
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Tom,
> >
> > Sorry, I wish a 10 day treatment with antibiotics would rid
> > Rainbowfish of Mycobacteria marinum. If so, believe me, we would
> > have heard about it by now! I was only speculating that it might
> > reduce the total number of Mycobacteria in the tank, the ones that
> > could re-infect the fish. Its might control total numbers of
> > pathogen; it won't eradicate them.
> >
> > I wouldn't put much stock in any antibiotics. Antibiotics won't kill
> > the bacteria that's already holed up in the fish's organs and
> > tissues. Mycobacteria marinum (like the Mycobacteria that cause lung
> > tuberculosis) hide from the immune system within the macrophages
> > themselves, plus they have a waxy coating that makes them very
> > resistant to all chemical treatments. That's why hobbyists that get
> > the M. marinum disease (still a relatively rare occurence) have to be
> > treated with powerful antibiotic combinations for many months.
> >
> > One correction to yesterday's letter. The scientific reference for
> > M. marinum disease spreading from aquaculture fish to wild fish in
> > Red Sea was: Diamant A et al. 2000. Mycobacteriosis in wild
> > rabbitfish Siganus rivulatus associated with cage farmng in the Gulf
> > of Eilat, Red Sea. Diseases Aquatic Organ 39: 211-219.
> >
> > Stress (from whatever factor) always increases the likelihood of
> > disease. The factors influenceing Mycobacteriosis (infections from
> > M. marinum) in Rainbowfish are:
> >
> > 1. Introduction of a virulent pathogen (e.g., M. marinum) into the
> > tank
> > 2. Numbers of the pathogen
> > 3. Stressed fish
> > 4. Strength of the fish's immunune system
> >
> >
> > Rainbowfish (unlike guppies) haven't been in the hobby long enough to
> > develop (genitically speaking) much immunity to a powerful pathogen
> > like M. marinumn.
> >
> > I started keeping Rainbowfish in 1987. Those first fish (in heavily
> > planted tank) went through two years with no filtration. They did
> > fine through hot summers and many months without water changes and 90
> > ppm nitrate levels (Hey, it was a dry summer and my well kept going
> > dry). The fish thrived and there were no deaths (except a couple
> > jumping out of tank).
> >
> > It is only now since the apparent introduction of a virulent pathogen
> > (most likely M. marinum in April 2004) that all my lovely fish are
> > on "life support".
> >
> > I hope that my sad experience will warn others to be very careful in
> > purchasing Rainbowfish.
> >
> > Unless you're buying from a seller that can guarantee the fish don't
> > carry M. marinum, my advice would be to buy eggs.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >