Re: [RML] Mycobacteriosis/stress/antibiotics

Liz Wilhite (Satirica at gmail.com)
Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:38:13 -0700

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Diana, thanks for the informative article.

On 6/14/05, blueredorganic <blueredorganic at yahoo.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Rainbowfish (unlike guppies) haven't been in the hobby long enough to
> develop (genitically speaking) much immunity to a powerful pathogen
> like M. marinumn.

I have seen guppies infected with this disease. Most livebearers and=20
goldfish are considered susceptible to fish TB by some at least somewhat=20
authoritative sources. Cichlids in general, and angel fish in particular,=20
are also considered to be at risk. I don't think we've seen development of =
a=20
lot of genetic resistance, and am curious as to whether the disease has bee=
n=20
in the hobby long enough for resistant strains to have been selected.=20

Unless you're buying from a seller that can guarantee the fish don't
> carry M. marinum, my advice would be to buy eggs.

What seller, or person on this list can guarantee that? I can't though I=20
have no fish that appear to be anything less than healthy. I have purchased=
=20
fish at the LFS, from people on this list, from Kent Webster via Tanner and=
=20
from local hobbyists. My plants have come from Florida, Southern California=
,=20
the LFS, a Seattle-area LFS, and PetSmart as well as from fellow plant=20
enthusiasts. And the LFS has had fish that apparently had fish TB although=
=20
no pathologist examined them.

Further, consider the purchase of eggs. You say that you will no longer=20
trade plants because in good conscience you can't -- an ethical decision=20
that I appreciate but something that must be painful to a plant person. If=
=20
plants can be carriers then nylon egg mops can be carriers, too. In fact,=20
some of the adsorption properties of nylon yarn could mean that it is a=20
better carrier than plants simply by being emersed in a tank containing the=
=20
bacteria. We could be buying mops carrying more bacteria than eggs.

While I'm not in the "blame the hobbyist" camp, if in fact this disease is=
=20
as widespread as many people claim it is -- something I'm not positive abou=
t=20
but wouldn't seriously dispute, either -- then the only chance we have is=20
through keeping the fish otherwise healthy and under as good of conditions=
=20
as possible. There is some debate about what "ideal conditions" are -- I've=
=20
been assured on this list that my boesemanis and praecox that are in a=20
slightly acidic planted tank will fall over dead if exposed to anything=20
because they are seriously stressed although the bows don't seem to agree.=
=20
I'm not certain that fish are all that different from plants in that the=20
conditions they are found in are not necessarily the best conditions to=20
raise them. Amazon swords are a lot happier in moderately hard water than i=
n=20
the extremely soft water they naturally occur in. Does anyone know if=20
studies of pH, hardness, TDS, etc. and their impact on the lifespan of=20
rainbows, or disease-susceptibility of rainbows, have been done?

One bright spot is your results with UV sterilizers -- that is making me=20
rethink the idea of putting them on my tanks. Like most everyone else I've=
=20
never had a reason to buy and use them. That is the first positive result=20
I've read, and I thank you for sharing that with us.

Again, thanks for the article and sharing your experiences as well as=20
including others work.=20

Liz

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Diana, thanks for the informative article.

On 6/14/05, blueredorganic <blueredorganic at yahoo.com> wrote:

Rainbowfish (unlike guppies) haven't been in the hobby long enough to
develop (genitically speaking) much immunity to a powerful pathogen
like M. marinumn.

I have seen guppies infected with this disease.  Most livebearers and goldfish are considered susceptible to fish TB by some at least somewhat authoritative sources.  Cichlids in general, and angel fish in particular, are also considered to be at risk.  I don't think we've seen development of a lot of genetic resistance, and am curious as to whether the disease has been in the hobby long enough for resistant strains to have been selected.

Unless you're buying from a seller that can guarantee the fish don't
carry M. marinum, my advice would be to buy eggs.

What seller, or person on this list can guarantee that?  I can't though I have no fish that appear to be anything less than healthy.  I have purchased fish at the LFS, from people on this list, from Kent Webster via Tanner and from local hobbyists.  My plants have come from Florida, Southern California, the LFS, a Seattle-area LFS, and PetSmart as well as from fellow plant enthusiasts.  And the LFS has had fish that apparently had fish TB although no pathologist examined them.

Further, consider the purchase of eggs.  You say that you will no longer trade plants because in good conscience you can't -- an ethical decision that I appreciate but something that must be painful to a plant person.  If plants can be carriers then nylon egg mops can be carriers, too.  In fact, some of the adsorption properties of nylon yarn could mean that it is a better carrier than plants simply by being emersed in a tank containing the bacteria.  We could be buying mops carrying more bacteria than eggs.

While I'm not in the "blame the hobbyist" camp, if in fact this disease is as widespread as many people claim it is -- something I'm not positive about but wouldn't seriously dispute, either -- then the only chance we have is through keeping the fish otherwise healthy and under as good of conditions as possible. There is some debate about what "ideal conditions" are -- I've been assured on this list that my boesemanis and praecox that are in a slightly acidic planted tank will fall over dead if exposed to anything because they are seriously stressed although the bows don't seem to agree.  I'm not certain that fish are all that different from plants in that the conditions they are found in are not necessarily the best conditions to raise them.  Amazon swords are a lot happier in moderately hard water than in the extremely soft water they naturally occur in.  Does anyone know if studies of pH, hardness, TDS, etc. and their impact on the lifespan of rainbows, or disease-susceptibility of rainbows, have been done?

One bright spot is your results with UV sterilizers -- that is making me rethink the idea of putting them on my tanks.  Like most everyone else I've never had a reason to buy and use them.  That is the first positive result I've read, and I thank you for sharing that with us.

Again, thanks for the article and sharing your experiences as well as including others work. 

Liz
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