I have never read this book, tho I am familiar with Mr. Spotte (I worked a
bit for his lab that he had when he was affiliated with the Mystic
Marinelife Aquarium in Connecticut, USA) and have looked at some of his
other books. I will see if my B.F. has a copy since I thought I saw a Spotte
title or two in his fish books, and if not will see about obtaining one.
Sounds like one of those "should-own-it" books any true fish-geek needs to
have.
Julie <'><
>From: Dave Wilson <aqua.green at bigpond.com>
>Reply-To: r_m_l at yahoogroups.com
>To: <r_m_l at yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [RML] ionic strength, avoiding fish kills
>Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 09:11:00 +0930
>
>
>Julie,
>There is an explanation of how the blood regulatory mechanisms operate in
>fish in the Stephen Spotte book "Captive Seawater Fishes, Science and
>Technology" published 1992 by Wiley . It goes into great detail on how
>the
>fish regulate their blood pH and external factors that affect the process.
>There is about 20 pages of really big words that would require me to spend
>several hours with a dictionary to make sense of it but I am sure the
>answer
>to your questions will be in there. Spotte's book has excellent
>explanations of fish osmoregulation processes and many other topics that
>affect freshwater fish as well as marine fish. Looks like they need to
>keep their blood pH between about 7.4 and 7.8 and use bicarbonate and non
>bicarbonate buffers. The process is affected by water chemistry and
>temperature. They eliminate hydrogen in ammonium to regulate blood pH,
>maybe why ammonium hurts fish, it stuffs up blood pH.
>
>His explanation on carbonate hardness and alkalinity is about 20 pages as
>well. The book is about 950 pages long and will take a long time to read.
>
>Cheers
>Dave
>
>
>
>On 4/12/05 3:34 AM, "Julie Zeppieri" <bowluvr at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, Gary. :-)
> >
> > The KH of the Rift Lake tanks is 13. That is what the buffer is designed
> > for. Never measure the GH, but my guess it is also moderate-to-high from
>a
> > read of the buffer's ingredients. In the Rift Lake tanks, ironically, I
>do
> > not use any crushed coral or shell, just the buffer. I only use crushed
> > coral/shell (and in small amounts) in my non-Rift tanks to keep the pH
>from
> > bottoming out -- even with discus and Apistos, as I have had the pH drop
>to
> > 2.8!! The Apistos in the tank did fine, but I tested it due to the fact
>that
> > the clump of previously happy Java Moss had gone to brown mush. ;-)
>GH/KH
> > in my non-Rift tanks is in the low/soft range generally (tho not overly
>so)
> > unless I tweak it further. I rarely do this BTW, as soft is fine for my
> > needs for the most part. Even the guppies and rainbows don't mind soft
>so
> > long as pH is not low as well.
> >
> > The main point to all my questions and such is that I am really not
>trying
> > to find out IF pH drops are dangerous (I know they are), but WHY they
>are.
> > My friend asked the physiolgy behind this, and I guess the ion thing by
> > itself just doesn't seem like the right answer. Perhaps a part of it,
>but
> > there are just things it does not address.
> >
> > I guess my next move is to try and contact the "wet vet" we have here in
> > Oregon (U of O, Hatfeild Marine Science Center, and Oregon Coast
>Aquarium
> > affilated -- busy man!). Hopefully I will get a reply, or at least some
> > literature links. If I get a full explanation on this I will forward it
>to
> > the list. I was just hoping to do this "in house" since so many of you
>are
> > in the habit of knowing such details usually. :-)
> >
> > Julie <'><
> >
> >
> >> From: Gary Lange <rainbowfish4u2 at yahoo.com>
> >> Reply-To: r_m_l at yahoogroups.com
> >> To: r_m_l at yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [RML] ionic strength, avoiding fish kills
> >> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:38:20 -0800 (PST)
> >>
> >> Ok, so reading and answering questions on coffee break is not the best
> >> idea. <some> of the stuff he said made sense, other items didn't. I
>agree
> >> that going from high pH to low pH, even with pretty much the same ionic
> >> strength could zap your fish. I'm usually taking fish from someone
>with
> >> well water (400 ppm GH, lots of KH and who knows how many other ions,
>pH ~
> >> 7.8 or higher) and moving it to my 125 ppm GH, 3 degrees (~ 54 ppm) KH
>and
> >> fairly low in ions, pH ~ 7. So most of the time I'm dealing with both
> >> effects. Like you, I have gone from low to high (ions/hardness or pH)
>w/o
> >> any problems too, fairly quickly, w/o any problems.
> >>
> >> Have you ever measured the GH/KH of the water that you are keeping
>your
> >> Africans in? I would bet that the aragonite or crushed shell/coral has
> >> raised your GH & KH a fair amount and it's probably higher than you
>think.
> >> Bottom line, take home message though is don't go from high to low,
> >> quickly, do it slowly. Take a few hours or even overnight for really
>big
> >> differences. Dripping from the tank into the bucket with the new fish
>is
> >> the best way to accomplish this w/o too much hassle. Just keep a lid
>on
> >> those bows as they really get crazy in a bucket!
> >>
> >> gary lange
> >>
> >>
> >> Julie Zeppieri <bowluvr at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> So, then, Gary, does this mean that you agree with that forum-guy's
> >> explanation of the physiological "whys" in which taking a fish from
>high pH
> >> to low will likely kill it, but taking it from low to high will likely
>not
> >> hurt it?? I don't really see how that works, myself.
> >>
> >> Seems to me this does not take into account that the ionic content of
>the
> >> water may be close to the same from the "higher" pH to the "lower" one
>--
> >> such as when one goes from say a 7.1 down to 5.4. I can get a higher pH
> >> water here in Portland w/out greatly altering either KH or GH, and I
>don't
> >> ever use much more than just some crushed shell or aragonite to keep pH
> >> from
> >> tanking (outside of Rift Lake tanks, at least). Don't use much NaCl
>either
> >> unless a problem (eg: Velvet) calls for it. Granted, I don't have a way
>to
> >> test ionic content, but my tests do show that my water is still
>considered
> >> "soft" even at pHs above 7. And yet in the above scenario, I *can* kill
>a
> >> fish by just dumping it into a 5.4 tank from out of a 7.1 tank, even a
> >> species which can theoretically handle the 5.4 if acclimated slowly,
>and
> >> despite the fact that it doesn't seem to me that the ionic content
>would be
> >> that different.
> >>
> >> However, when I "shoot the elevator to the top floor" by dumping Rift
>Lake
> >> buffer into a tank that was previously at about 7.4-ish and relatively
> >> soft,
> >> sending it up to KH 13 and pH 8.3 (and goodness knows what GH or ionic
> >> content), and the fish don't even seem to notice, well, I must say I am
> >> stumped by this "ionic is the cause" answer. If this IS the case, can
>you
> >> explain it to me so I get it? 'Cause I don't.
> >>
> >> Mebbee I is just thick inna head or sumpin' -- dunno. ;-)
> >>
> >> Thanks!