Sorry I may have got carried in my reply and perhaps my tone was not correct, my apologies. But I do feel very strongly against people who see animals merely as commodities. I understand now you're not one of those, which is good.
My "aquarium journey" started with platies.. My brother and I (9 and 6 years then) were in awe at the first babies, I still remember it as if it was today.
Sigh.. not getting younger.. :-(
Christophe
r_m_l at yahoogroups.com schrieb am 29.10.05 06:28:11:
Okay,
It is obvious that this topic has struck a chord and pinched a nerve at
the same time, (I have been watching this list for years and have never
posted before now, so that tells you how passionate I feel about this
subject), and I have never seen the tempers flare in some of the users
as i have in these posts. And because it has gotten off topic I will
try to keep my reply as short as I can and, hopefully, let the thread end.
I agree mostly with what Andrew and Christophe say about goldfish
becoming a commodity and the need to prevent people from mistreating
them because of that status. They are not "just fish" and I never
implied that in my statement. I am proud of the fact that I ran a
freshwater specialty store and had customers from 3 states away come to
me to buy rainbowfish because I had some of the most unusual species in
the country and many that my local customers had never seen before. I
used to consider myself an expert on the subject until I got on this
list and realized the caliber of aquarists that frequented the RML. I
am but an amateur compared to many of you, but in my opinion a very
experienced one.
I personally have never advocated to any of my customers that any
goldfish be kept in less than a 20 or 30 gallon tank, and even more
comfortably, in any tank in lieu of a pond. At the very least we would
try to sell them a pump and filter for their bowl in hopes of keeping
the fish relatively clean and aerated, and in hopes that their success
would lead to the purchase of a larger tank at a later date. If
Boesmani rainbows were 10 for a dollar, I suppose we would be having
this conversation on the goldfish group right now.
Having said that, I also continued to donate goldfish coupons to the
local schools in an effort to educate people (and make a living, I am
certainly not trying to hide that fact). If I chose not to give
goldfish as a matter of principle, then somebody else would, and give
them out by the hundreds, and our community would be none the wiser to
the thousands of goldfish each year being tortured or malnourished or
deprived in any other way of what they need to survive and thrive. At
least using this strategy we could try to show the errors of our ways to
one person at a time. We do run a business, but some of us have a
conscience and attempt to actually educate our customers on how to keep
a thriving aquarium. It is a delicate balance. I have read most of
your opinions on LFS's and understand where you are coming from. I like
to think that I was the exception to the rule, and had any of you
visited my store, I hope that you would have as well.
I started this hobby with a Betta 20+ years ago as a child because it
lived, and have come a long way since. I had goldfish prior to that and
they died due to my ignorance, and my parents'. The only way to further
the hobby is to educate the future hobbyists on which fish to keep and
how to keep them, and help them begin their journey in fishkeeping with
the knowledge they need to be successful. And usually, that journey
starts with a goldfish.
As far as Bettas are concerned, I have kept them in every possible size
of bowl and aquarium, and truly believe that they thrive in a small tank
or large bowl, at least 1 or 2 gallons, but not in the clear cocktail
cups that they are so often seen in fish stores. I even bred Bettas as
a teenager and found that when I provided aeration, in even the smallest
amount, the male had a hard time keeping the fry together near the nest
and often lost many of them because of that, but that is a subject for
another list. :)
Sorry for being so longwinded and thanks for being open to others'
opinions. I truly enjoy reading this list every day and hope to post
more often on a more friendly and helpful topic.
mike
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 19:58:47 +1000
From: Andrew Boyd <andrew at friendlymanual.com>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 162
Hi Mike,
I can see your perspective, and Dave's.
Despite the Bettas, and the size thing, and the 'they can take my fish
from my cold dead fingers' (all valid arguments), the basic fact remains
that as long as there are goldfish bowls, people will put goldfish in
them. It is a bit like the old tonics for children that were full of
cocaine and morphine - people didn't HAVE to feed them to their kids,
but many did. When in doubt, people take the easiest way. This easiest
way is a bit hard on the poor old goldfish. Better, I think, that they
die swiftly in the belly of a pet Barramundi than suffer in the bowl.
I am not a legislator, or a member of Animal Liberation, or a fanatic. I
just don't like goldfish bowls because to me they symbolise everything
that is wrong with the aquarium hobby. There is a lot right with it, but
a few things wrong with it too. I believe that as soon as we start
seeing live animals (including people) as commodities, we lose a bit of
ourselves. If I see a man beating a donkey with a stick, I will offer to
help him understand the error of his ways. If someone asks me my opinion
on goldfish bowls, I will tell them.
Your opinion may vary :)
Best regards, Andrew
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:10:51 +0200
From: Christophe Mailliet <christophe.mailliet at web.de>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 162
"I have been in the pet shop business (and a rainbow hobbyist) for almost
20 years. We used to give coupons for a "free goldfish"to the local
fairs as prizes. When the winner would come in to claim their prize we
would do our best to sell them on a Betta. The benefit of the coupon,
though, is the same principal retailers use when they give a rebate.
Only a small percentage of the winners actually claim the fish. Out of
the 500 coupons that we would usually give out, maybe 50 would be
redeemed, and 10 or 20 of those could be talked into buying a Betta and
the necessary accessories. Often after the goldfish died, they would
return for something "longer-lived". This is a strategy that give a
local fish store the ability to make more money, so i don't understand
why most of them have not adopted a similar policy."
This "business strategy" shows a total lack of respect for living beings, that is a goldfish. Using goldfish as "live bait" to sell more other fish, knowing full well that these goldfish will not be treated appropriately in many cases, shows not just all what is wrong with (parts of) the aquarium hobby, but also a lot of what is wrong with (parts of) the aquarium trade. You should know that a goldfish, given appropriate care, can live 20 years and more. You buy a goldfish? Then care for it, if else, don't buy a goldfish and start collecting stamps. Period. And don't tell me they're "just fish", either. Rainbows and any other fancy expensive fish are also "just fish".
Last but least, that Bettas "thrive in a bowl" is elephant dung.
My opinion, and I stand by it 100%.
Christophe (slightly upset)
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