Re: [RML] species maintenance(bullsh*t)

Roy Hunter (rainbows01 at
Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:35:31 -0700

Dont worry Julie we do encourage newcomers. AS ALL CAN SEE we have taken it
off list and FINALLY there is something productive coming from it.

All will see the good that has come from it in the future. Sometimes you
need to shake things up a little to get anything done.

Cary has come up with some great ideas that are agreeable but at this time
Gary still wont come to the table....

Come on Gary it wont kill you!

Roy Hunter
ANGFA of North America
visit the ANGFA website at:
reach me at:
roy at
-----Original Message-----
From: Georgia Mountain Web <juliesis at>
To: rainbowfish at <rainbowfish at>
Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [RML] species maintenance(bullsh*t)

>Well said both Peter and Julie,
>Let me tell you from a newcomer's perspective, the arguements I've seen
>(since I don't know these guys) are enough to make me pretty hesitant to
>join either organization. It's one thing to have a beef but it seems
>inappropriate to air them out in public.
>I think that all of this energy could be better put to use, I for one would
>much rather learn from your knowledge about rainbows. Bruce, Julie,
>Marcel, Jim etc, you guys have really encouraged me as a beginner. I
>certainly wasn't going to start breeding with a very rare fish, so I chose
>praecox. I guess I'm a kind of "gray hole" but I feel better knowing that
>in my neck of the woods it is very hard to find a good praecox. As I learn
>and get better at this I might want to try species maintenance.
>Since I have a general idea now of the missions of RSG and ANGFA, it seems
>kind of counterproductive that some of the leaders of these groups don't
>seem particularly interested in newcomers. When you believe in something
>so strongly, and you want others to get involved, encouragement goes a long
>way in accomplishing this.
>Anyway, that's my .02 for what it's worth, but I'm just a neophyte and what
>do I know :-))))
>Julie S.
>>Peter said something about "forgive and forget." Maybe we should all try
>>to practice this philosophy, as this stuff we have been seeing is getting
>>us nowhere fast. May I humbly suggest that we just end this and not add
>>any more fuel to the fire? I for one, would sure appreciate it. :)
>>Julie <><
>>aka bowluvr
>> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 peter.unmack at ASU.Edu wrote:
>>> On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Roy Hunter wrote:
>>> > I couldn't give a rats ass if Gary likes me. My point is
>>> > the lack of the clubs working together because of personal grudges.
>>> Roy, what you fail to understand here is that you cannot piss someone
>>> to the point where they no longer wish to have anything to do with you
>>> expect them to work with you and then just call it politics. You may be
>>> able to do this, but most people can not. Sure, antagonism is never one
>>> sided, but burnt bridges are rarely mended. Now don't go thinking I am
>>> pointing the finger directly at you, we can all be petty and
>>> at times much to our own disbenefit. I've done it myself many times.
>>> just trying to get you to consider the other side of the fence.
>>> Also, publically dragging up mud and evidence to support your case
>>> Gary and/or the RSG does nothing to help reconciliation (which is what
>>> are trying to achieve here right?), let alone the rainbowfish hobby.
>>> one thing to defend yourself against potential mistruths, which we all
>>> have a right to do, but also consider the greater implications of your
>>> actions. Does you proving that Gary did this, or Gary proving that Roy
>>> did that really help the situation? If you really wanted to help things
>>> you would say lets forget about the past. Forget about who is right or
>>> wrong, as I can assure you, no one is right or wrong. I've heard more
>>> bullshit from all sides of the fence, usually based on wrong impressions
>>> and on 4th hand information. There are few angels in this world,
>>> especially not you or Gary or me. What's that old saying, let he who is
>>> without sin throw the first stone? I haven't seen any angels throwing
>>> stones in this debate.
>>> Personally, I don't ever see Roy and Gary mending their bridge. Just
>>> accept it, forget it, and move on or things will only be made worse.
>>> Anyone on the killifish list will agree with me there. You have to see
>>> SOME killifish people to believe it!! Ok, enough philosophy for the
>>> moment.
>>> > As I said in my original post I get them here from Australia, breed
>them and
>>> > make them available.... do I need to get them in your program too???
>>> If you want them to stay in the hobby in the US then I'd say yes. If
>>> you'd like to leave it to chance then I'd say it doesn't matter.
>>> > It seems to me the complaints are
>>> > coming in your articles with the lack of participation and referring
>>> > people that dont breed as black holes.... When I respond you your
>>> > "Concerns" they are complaints... No Cary I dont think so.....
>>> When it comes to species maintenance programs people who don't breed
>>> are black holes. Are they not? Is this statement not a fact if taken
>>> literally? Species mainenance is by definition about breeding fish, if
>>> you don't breed them then it doesn't count. Sure, if Joe Blow (or
>>> Joesette Blow) is just keeping rainbows they may introduce others into
>>> hobby who will, or do other things that are beneficial, but the odds of
>>> this are lower then if they breed a bunch themselves. "We" need
>>> more people breeding fish as there are too many for folks to presently
>>> manage and keep track of. Cary's article was a plea to people get
>>> involved, especially those people who are already breeding fish who
>>> in the program, and also to encourage others to start breeding.
>>> People have taken his statement way out of context. Cary never said
>>> a black hole meant you were the devil (as some have almost implied).
>>> much has been read between the lines here. Perhaps Cary should have
>>> less stronger adjectives, perhaps others could consider his perspective
>>> too. Cary puts in a lot of time and effort into organising the program,
>>> he usually has to chase people up, then don't often come to him. It's a
>>> tough and unthankful job, but very important. He doesn't derive much
>>> benefit from doing it, other rainbowfish people in the US do. When
>>> people then start to shit down your throat it doesn't rub off very well.
>>> It's a job I would never take on.
>>> Too many times these disputes arise without the "opposing sides"
>>> considering each others alternative perspectives. Often, once you can
>>> things from another person's perspective you can begin to understand the
>>> arguement and the real issues of contention and come to a greater
>>> understaning of each other. So far, I have not seen too many people
>>> considering Cary's viewpoint. All I have seen is all out attack over
>>> initially just two words, "black hole". Stop attacking and start
>>> a little more. There are no answers in this debate (as in most), no
>>> and white, just shades of gray. And, showing a little greatfulness /
>>> recognition for the work that others do for the hobby never hurts
>>> I think Cary is doing a job unparralleled in any other aquarium hobbyist
>>> organisation in the world. Many clubs have tried and failed at this
>>> effort, the RSG's program is only a baby (and not it's first attempt),
>>> it has a lot of potential as long as someone like Cary continues to put
>>> his own passion, time, and effort. I think we all have a lot to thank
>>> for, or at the very least consider when critisising him over two words.
>>> Tootles
>>> Peter J Unmack peter.unmack at
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> DESERT FISHES RULE: To boldly thrive where no other fish can make it!
>>> Australian desert fishes pages at (don't
>>> forget to visit the Desert Fishes Council pages too)
>>> Native Fish Australia pages at
>>> North American Native Fishes Association at
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